Posts by Old Goat

40

men kept for unnatural purposes?

by gotime in

somewhere in the new testament it lists grave sins that would prevent one from inheriting the kingdom.

"men kept for unnatural purposes" is listed.

are we talking prostitutes?

Old Goat

Edward Westermarck in The Origin and Development of the Moral Ideas, Volume 2, suggests Male Temple Prostitutes.

The book is available from the google library.

Enjoy,

Old Goat

14

1924-Very, very rare-"Comforted Of God"--PDF!

by Atlantis in

1924-very, very rare!-"comforted of god"--pdf!

bm=bookmarked s=searchable r=reduced from 18-mb to 9.8-mb ref.=referenced (second reference copy included) written by frederick lardent (supplement to "the call of the bride") date from handwritten notes from original owner shows 1924.

************************************************************* i cannot even imagine what this "very rare" booklet would sell for on ebay!

Old Goat

"The song Millions Now Living Will Never Die was first issued as a single sheet printed on one side only. It is copyright 1922 by Isabelle Elliot. The single sheet version of the song was published by Dr. C. R. Rhinehart of South Bend Indiana. Comforted of God is one of a number of Lardent booklets, some published before he left off association with the Watch Tower Society. This one seems to date from the year before he left. Other booklets of his were reprinted in The New Era Enterprise."

I wrote to the person who runs truthhistory.blogspot.com. This was his reply. He usually knows what he's about, and I believe this is accurate. He also says the booklet is moderately hard to find but not rare. I only own it as a photocopy, and I've never seen the broadsheet version of the song.

5

This is Intersting

by Old Goat in

links to this site have been posted before.

i keep going back for more.

there is new material on early russellite history at truthhistory.blogspot.com.

Old Goat

I think you meant this site. NO! Silly boy or girl as the case may be. I meant the owner of the Truthhistory.blogspot.com site is either a Witness or Bible Student! Sheesh!

Sorry for any confusion!

5

This is Intersting

by Old Goat in

links to this site have been posted before.

i keep going back for more.

there is new material on early russellite history at truthhistory.blogspot.com.

Old Goat

Links to this site have been posted before. I keep going back for more. There is new material on early Russellite history at Truthhistory.blogspot.com.

I am continually impressed with this sites forthright handling of Watch Tower history, even though the site owner is obviously either a Witness or Bible Student.

The discussion of A. D. Jones and J. H. Paton is well worth the time it takes to read. Scroll down to the post on Russell's early associates. There is research here I've seen no where else.

And you Masonic conspiracy buffs? Note that some of Russell's early associates were, just as he said they were, Masons.

18

questions on early period (Russell &Co)

by greven in

jw
friends

i am currently doing some research on the early days and struck a few obstacles for which i need some help from anybody.. 1)russell predicted several times the "rapture of the saints".

this meant a visible return of those saints and that russell & co would rise to heaven.

when they failed to return visibly it was concluded that it did happen but invisible.

Old Goat

Where did Barbour get the 606B.C. date?

Attempts to delineate "Gentile Times" were not new. In 1795, E. W. Whitaker, Anglican rector of All Saints, Canterbury, published A General and Connected View of the Prophecies Relating to the Times of the Gentiles, ending them in 1856. There is a very large and complex body of 18th and 19th Century prophetic literature centered on the Times of the Gentiles.

An endless number of suggestions were made on various basis for the end of Gentile Times. One speculation originated in England and is of interest because the author prolongs the fulfillment of the Times of the Gentiles beyond the end of the first 6000 thousand years of the millennial week. L. A. Du Puget suggested that the end of 6000 years, "when the Seventh Millennium and Day of the Lord may be daily expected," was due in 1862. He dates the end of the Times of the Gentiles to three years afterward.

Barbour and his associates did not immediately reconsider Gentile Times. The issues of an invisible parousia and other chronological speculations came first. We also do not know who among them initiated the discussion. In the absence of other claims, it is probably safe to suppose that Barbour was responsible for concluding Gentile Times ended not in the 1870s, but in 1914. The first mention of the 1914 date as the end of The Times of the Gentiles is in the September 1875 issue of The Herald of the Morning. In passing Barbour remarked, "‘The time of the Gentiles,’ viz. Their seven prophetic times of 2520 years ... which began when God gave all into the hands of Nebuchadnezzar, in 606 B. C.; do not end until 1914."

Barbour is indebted to John Aquila Brown for the 2520 year computation. Brown in turn owes the calculation of the "seven times" of Daniel’s prophecy as 2520 years and the association of it to The Times of the Gentiles to Joshua Spalding. Spaulding wrote Divine Theory; A System of Divinity in 1798, though it seems not to have been published until 1808. Spalding, writing of the seven-times of Daniel’s Great Tree Vision, said: "Seven times, or one full week of years, upon the great prophetic scale, is 2520 years. This supposition is much strengthened by the consideration, that the continuance of mystical Babylon is said expressly to be for a time, times, and a half; and as the times allotted for this division of the empire, is the half of a week, three times and a half, it is natural to conclude, that the whole of the times, called the times of the Gentiles, is a whole week, or seven times."

Though Spalding was an American clergyman, his books circulated in Britain as the British Library Catalogue testifies. It is possible that J. A. Brown was familiar with Spalding. Yet, it seems certain that in actual influence on Barbour, Brown played a part that Spalding did not.That Gentile Times were 2520 years became a standard view among expositors, though they were calculated from various start dates. The popularization of the 2520 year calculation was probably due to George Stanley Faber. He used the calculation in The Sacred Calendar of Prophecy, published in 1828. When The Christian Guardian and Church of England Magazine reviewed Faber’s book in 1830, it accepted without question the 2520 day calculation, though it suggested Faber had no basis for his start date. Edward Bickersteth adopted the calculation in the mid-1830s. His reputation as a pious Bible scholar sealed it into Advent thinking.

If the 2520 year calculation isn’t original to Barbour, nothing else in his "Gentile Times" calculation belongs to him either. Faber mentioned the 606 B.C. date in his 1811 work A Dissertation on the Prophecy Contained in Daniel ix, 24-27. In the 1820s several authors pointed to 606 B. C. as the date at which the seventy-years exile began. In 1834 Matthew Habershon mentioned the 606 B. C. date, but calculated the "seven times" from three years later, ending them in 1918. William Miller adopted the 2520 year calculation but ended it in 1843. John Dowling, a Baptist pastor, criticized William Miller’s method for calculating the "seven times," suggesting that "it would have answered the purpose ... much better had this subtraction happened to have brought out the number 606 B. C., the date of the commencement of the 70 years captivity of the Israelites in Babylon."

It seems certain that the ultimate source for Barbour’s 1914 calculation is E. B. Elliott’s Horae Apocalypticae, where the 606 B.C. to 1914 calculation is found. The next mention of the 1914 date in connection to Gentile Times I can find is by an anonymous author writing in The Original Session Magazine in 1850. The magazine was published in Scotland but saw circulation in the United States. This author suggested that the "seven times" would end in 1897, yet his calculation took him to 1914. He arrives at his other dates, including the 1897 date by a complicated series of additions and subtractions from the basic "2520 - 606 = 1914" calculation. If one removes all the puzzling additions and subtractions, one has Barbour’s usage. There is no way to know if Barbour was familiar with Session magazine, but he almost certainly was familiar with John Dowling and Habershon, and he tells us he read Elliott’s Horae Apocalypticae.

It is worth noting that Samuel Davies Baldwin taught that the actual date was 607 B.C. He dated the seventy years from 607- 537 B.C., a view later adopted by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Note: "Bruce" isn't the moderator of either of the amzingforums presentations. He is the author of the Barbour biography at Truthhistory.blogspot.com. He is very forthcoming on sources, and can be reached through his blog. It's refereshing to find a JW who isn't afraid of really looking at the Watchtower's past. Most Witnesses seem afraid of it.

4

Interesting Historical Bit

by Old Goat in

i have been following this website since it went up.

the research on barbour is remarkable.

the individual who runs the site has posted photos i've never seen before.

Old Goat

Dear Buffa,

If you look up at the last line of my post you will find the web address: TruthHistory.blogspot.com

4

Interesting Historical Bit

by Old Goat in

i have been following this website since it went up.

the research on barbour is remarkable.

the individual who runs the site has posted photos i've never seen before.

Old Goat

I have been following this website since it went up. The research on Barbour is remarkable. The individual who runs the site has posted photos I've never seen before.

The research appeals to me because it tells the story in detail and doesn't hide the warts on Russell's early associates. As far as I've been able to check, it's more accurate and far more detailed than anything else out there.

TruthHistory.Blogspot.com

25

So how did the folks in YOUR congregation react to this week's KM?

by Dead Man Joaquin in

you know, the one where independent bible research is forbidden, er, discouraged.. .

did anybody actually have the balls to say, "the society does not say such activities are forbidden or discouraged, just not endorsed?

" (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

Old Goat

Plainly, the prohibition on private study is unscriptural and elitist. Does the Governing Body or its minions seriously think that private, unmonitored Bible study will lack the influence of holy spirit? The real issue seems to be problem avoidance. Individual and private group study always raises questions. Not everyone will reach a sound conclusion. Among Witnesses, many will not because The Watchtower has raised a mind-enslaved progeny. Where are the elders who can, as did Paul, prove logically what the truth about the Christ is?

Problem-avoidance is no reason to discourage what the Bible encourages. A. T. Robertson, commenting on Acts 17:11 says: "Paul expounded the Scriptures daily ... but the Beroeans, instead of resenting his new interpretation, examined (anakrio means to sift up and down, make careful and exact research as in legal processes as in Acts 4:29; 12:1`9, etc.) the Scriptures for themselves. ... The Beroeans were eagerly interested in the new message of Paul and Silas but they wanted to see it for themselves. What a noble attitude. Paul’s preaching made Bible students of them. The duty of private interpretation is thus made plain."

M. R. Vincent makes the point that scripture study should be thorough. Commenting on anakrio, he wrote: "Originally implying a thorough examination ... from top to bottom." (Comment found in Word Studies, at Luke 23:14) Most Witnesses have never examined anything from top to bottom. The Watchtower’s elite discourages it because they do not wish to deal with the problems that arise when people unused to hard and effective study wade into it. The have no trained elder body fit to answer the many questions that arise. Consequently, many of the questions arrive by post at the Watchtower offices. Then much time is spent answering the questions. Of course, if the Governing body had ever seriously trained the world wide elder body, almost none of them would make it that far. But then, other problems would arise. After all, who wants to deal with a trained elder body that might ask questions of its own?

The real issue is this: Will you let your responsibility slip into the hands of others, simply because they claim it as their own? Christians are responsible for their beliefs. Individual Christians are responsible for confirming the message about the Christ in all its details.

Those who produced this question box wish to usurp that responsibility. That is a sin.

2

I Noticed This Was Back

by Old Goat in

information on barbour updated and enlarged is back online.

i remain impressed by this research.

he seems to remove the material fairly quickly after comments and edits.

Old Goat

Information on Barbour updated and enlarged is back online. I remain impressed by this research. He seems to remove the material fairly quickly after comments and edits. So now is the time to read it.

Truthhistory.blogspot.com

13

Herald of the Morning magazine

by cabasilas in

i recently received copies of the herald of the morning magazine that was edited by n.h. barbour.

russell is named as one of the assistant editors.

the issues i have are from july 1878 until june 1879. the last issue (june 1879) does not have russell's name on it and we all know the next month he started zion's watch tower (july 1879).

Old Goat

I emailed the person who wrote the Barbour article. He says that The Herald of the Morning started as The Midnight Cry in December 1873. It became Midnight Cry and Herald of the Morning and was published thus until the October 1874 issue, when publication was suspended. It was reactivated as The Herald of the Morning in June 1875 and published until the March issue 1876. There was no February 1876 issue. It was reactivated as a quarterly in 1877 to publish Three Worlds in parts. It continued until the mid-1880s. It was thereafter published with some long breaks until 1903. Apparently Barbour reactivated it in 1896, predicting end-times events about 1907. He says Peters was in error listing a June 15 th issue. There is a June issue. It was a monthly.

He says that as far as he knows, with the exception of one issue of The Midnight Cry, all issues are privately owned.